Ability Forum

[Sachin]

Hi again,

We all talk about how it is important for persons with disabilities to actively participate in sports and recreation, and I completely agree. I am also a part of the team which is very proactively compiling a Guidebook on creating sporting and recreational facilities for persons with disability, which of course will be published in the public domain for everyone to refer to, and it is during the course of this compilation that I came across a gentleman who is the administrator for one such facility that exists in south of delhi.

He discussed some of the challenges that came across while trying to provide a facility which aimed at inclusion of persons with disabilities to the mainstream through active sports and recreation.

Like for instance, at an accessible swimming pool which was recently open, many disabled and able bodied participated together in the swimming activity, but trouble (for the administrator) started when one of the young disabled boy stripped in front of the large group of ladies and children. Now the office of the administrator was filled with complaints and he had simply no answer for them.

At an another instance, one of the disabled, who had little or no control over his/her bowel, discharged in the pool. Making it a health and safety concern for the administrator. I was also told that in such cases, which were frequent in this facility, the cleaning of the pool and sanitisation effort takes upto a week and is also fairly expensive.

He also stated, that many a times, certain social groups misused the financial concessions provided for the use of such facility by claiming to provide swimming as a therapeutic activity and bring the disabled children to the swimming pool, and in turn charge the disabled children a much higher price in the name of therapy.

I like to point out here that, the administrator has also tried appointing different swimming timings for the able bodied and persons with disability (for purely logistical reasons) but has in the process invited the ire from many disabled individuals, NGO's and Social Organisations for discriminating against the disabled.

He faces a dilemma and I invite you all to give your inputs on how can he overcome the challenges that follow him.  

Please advise !

_________________
Cheers !

Sachin

Hi again,

We all talk about how it is important for persons with disabilities to actively participate in sports and recreation, and I completely agree. I am also a part of the team which is very proactively compiling a Guidebook on creating sporting and recreational facilities for persons with disability, which of course will be published in the public domain for everyone to refer to, and it is during the course of this compilation that I came across a gentleman who is the administrator for one such facility that exists in south of delhi.

He discussed some of the challenges that came across while trying to provide a facility which aimed at inclusion of persons with disabilities to the mainstream through active sports and recreation.

Like for instance, at an accessible swimming pool which was recently open, many disabled and able bodied participated together in the swimming activity, but trouble (for the administrator) started when one of the young disabled boy stripped in front of the large group of ladies and children. Now the office of the administrator was filled with complaints and he had simply no answer for them.

At an another instance, one of the disabled, who had little or no control over his/her bowel, discharged in the pool. Making it a health and safety concern for the administrator. I was also told that in such cases, which were frequent in this facility, the cleaning of the pool and sanitisation effort takes upto a week and is also fairly expensive.

He also stated, that many a times, certain social groups misused the financial concessions provided for the use of such facility by claiming to provide swimming as a therapeutic activity and bring the disabled children to the swimming pool, and in turn charge the disabled children a much higher price in the name of therapy.

I like to point out here that, the administrator has also tried appointing different swimming timings for the able bodied and persons with disability (for purely logistical reasons) but has in the process invited the ire from many disabled individuals, NGO's and Social Organisations for discriminating against the disabled.

He faces a dilemma and I invite you all to give your inputs on how can he overcome the challenges that follow him.  

Please advise !

_________________
Cheers !

Sachin

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[neha]

hi all,

the post written by Sachin was really an eye opener b'coz many a times we tend to overlook the problems faced by the 'other side'(which could be genuine and justified)... but incidents like these help us to plan accordingly and think of some possible and practical solutions to ensure a holistic approach towards accessibility and integration of the disabled in the society.

people, please share your experiences(if any) ...it helps all of us to be pragmatic and prepared!!!

bye all,

neha

hi all,

the post written by Sachin was really an eye opener b'coz many a times we tend to overlook the problems faced by the 'other side'(which could be genuine and justified)... but incidents like these help us to plan accordingly and think of some possible and practical solutions to ensure a holistic approach towards accessibility and integration of the disabled in the society.

people, please share your experiences(if any) ...it helps all of us to be pragmatic and prepared!!!

bye all,

neha

[Dsamant]

Hello,

A few thoughts on the topic of inclusive swimming pools. It is important to think about the issues you have raised as some of the basic concepts will apply to other public places as well.

In terms of bowel/bladder incontinence problems, you can consider special products which are designed especially for swimming, such as special needs swim pants, swim diapers etc. Unfortunately I am not aware of the prices of these products, and they may be imported and hence very expensive for many families.

For an idea, check out some of these links:
http://www.llmedico.com/incontinence-products-info/
http://www.fishershops.com/swimdiaper.html?referrer=Google
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20030181885.html

Maybe some cost effective schemes can be developed to promote access to such products more easily.

However the question about the dilemma between assigning separate timings to people with disabilities needs to be considered carefully, as many administrators and managers will have to face this problem.

Maybe financial mechanisms could be developed to provide some personal assistants to individuals that need some attention in public places to avoid situations like the one you mentioned above (stripping).

Sometimes administrators might take this to the extreme and say everyone with a disability should be assisted or supervised and this would be counter-productive to an individual’s autonomy and right to independent living. Hence it would be important to talk to them and help them understand that every person’s situation can be different. Most of the times, managers and administrators lack knowledge about these issues and so have no ideas themselves and hence refuse to even consider anything. If as individuals with disabilities and family members, we go to them with some ideas in mind it might be easier to convince them.

Integrated swimming pools can serve as a great opportunity to educate people about disability issues. Hence pools that develop these practices can consider putting up posters in common areas, distributing brochures etc. to their members to raise awareness about need for inclusion and methods they are employing to do the same. Misconceptions, stigma, and lack of awareness are major barriers to community inclusion and other members may benefit tremendously by coming into contact with individuals with disabilities and breaking stereotypes.

Hello,

A few thoughts on the topic of inclusive swimming pools. It is important to think about the issues you have raised as some of the basic concepts will apply to other public places as well.

In terms of bowel/bladder incontinence problems, you can consider special products which are designed especially for swimming, such as special needs swim pants, swim diapers etc. Unfortunately I am not aware of the prices of these products, and they may be imported and hence very expensive for many families.

For an idea, check out some of these links:
http://www.llmedico.com/incontinence-products-info/
http://www.fishershops.com/swimdiaper.html?referrer=Google
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20030181885.html

Maybe some cost effective schemes can be developed to promote access to such products more easily.

However the question about the dilemma between assigning separate timings to people with disabilities needs to be considered carefully, as many administrators and managers will have to face this problem.

Maybe financial mechanisms could be developed to provide some personal assistants to individuals that need some attention in public places to avoid situations like the one you mentioned above (stripping).

Sometimes administrators might take this to the extreme and say everyone with a disability should be assisted or supervised and this would be counter-productive to an individual’s autonomy and right to independent living. Hence it would be important to talk to them and help them understand that every person’s situation can be different. Most of the times, managers and administrators lack knowledge about these issues and so have no ideas themselves and hence refuse to even consider anything. If as individuals with disabilities and family members, we go to them with some ideas in mind it might be easier to convince them.

Integrated swimming pools can serve as a great opportunity to educate people about disability issues. Hence pools that develop these practices can consider putting up posters in common areas, distributing brochures etc. to their members to raise awareness about need for inclusion and methods they are employing to do the same. Misconceptions, stigma, and lack of awareness are major barriers to community inclusion and other members may benefit tremendously by coming into contact with individuals with disabilities and breaking stereotypes.

[Sachin]

Hi Dsamant,

Firstly welcome to the forum, and thank you for posting your thoughts on this topic as I had been anxiously waiting for members to do that.

Now as far as the issue here goes, I agree that there are aids available which could help solve the bladder/bowel problems, in fact I was fortunate enough to meet an active user of the same swimming pool recently, who told me how much he enjoys swimming there and uses these products too. I haven’t actively tried finding out where can one get these products from in India, but suppose the links you mentioned and few leads that swimmer gave me will help find out if anyone here stocks them and if yes then how much will they really cost.

I am sure, we can also convince some organisations to help procure these products and distribute them at a much reasonable price too, to help those who are unable to afford them.  

Providing Carers and Assistants will not be that easy, I thing there are two prime reasons for that:

Firstly, it is the fact is that the swimming pool is owned and administered by the local civil authority, and their job (read legal obligation) is to build, operate and maintain the swimming pool with limited provisions of budget and staff. They have however (as I mentioned before) kept the charges of the use of this facility either completely free or very minimal for persons with disabilities. They are also obliged (under law) to make provisions of health and safety to the users (to the extent of providing medical and life guard personnel at the premises). Maintenance of course is also one of their responsibilities. But it all ends there!

Secondly and interestingly, there is also a dearth of such trained staff in a country like ours (which is the biggest contender for an entry to the Guinness Records and obviously so for all the wrong reasons like unemployment, population etc.). So even if you do find people who are willing to become carers and assistants (usually as a second choice), they will have to be trained (usually by family, friends or the person needing the assistance himself) as there is no organised pool of trained persons available.

And for both the reasons stated above, a financial mechanism only aimed at providing assistants and carers to persons with disability may not work out unless (in my opinion) an NGO or a Corporate decides to take up the issue and;

-either takes up the responsibility of training and deploying (salary) carers and assistants to be available at such facilities or

-simply adopts the swimming pool and takes care of the financial implications related to provision of carer and assistant services while another organisation trains them.

The previous case will not only create a pool of trained staff which can then seek employment at other similar areas but also help create a more sustainable system which is replicable at other inclusive facilities.

The issue of assigning separate timings however remains unless as you said, we are able to positively convince the administrators and other members of the swimming pool to understand the importance and need for inclusion.  Interestingly, when asked to comment on the separate timings at the swimming pool, one of the disabled user of the pool (who I mentioned earlier in the post) had a rather straight forward answer, and he said “well like when you visit a forest reserve, it is understood that the animals have the first right of way, and in this case with the accessible swimming pool (which is one of the very few we have in delhi), the disabled users have the first right and hence the question of separate timings does not arise”  

I guess we still have a long way to go….

_________________
Cheers !

Sachin

Hi Dsamant,

Firstly welcome to the forum, and thank you for posting your thoughts on this topic as I had been anxiously waiting for members to do that.

Now as far as the issue here goes, I agree that there are aids available which could help solve the bladder/bowel problems, in fact I was fortunate enough to meet an active user of the same swimming pool recently, who told me how much he enjoys swimming there and uses these products too. I haven’t actively tried finding out where can one get these products from in India, but suppose the links you mentioned and few leads that swimmer gave me will help find out if anyone here stocks them and if yes then how much will they really cost.

I am sure, we can also convince some organisations to help procure these products and distribute them at a much reasonable price too, to help those who are unable to afford them.  

Providing Carers and Assistants will not be that easy, I thing there are two prime reasons for that:

Firstly, it is the fact is that the swimming pool is owned and administered by the local civil authority, and their job (read legal obligation) is to build, operate and maintain the swimming pool with limited provisions of budget and staff. They have however (as I mentioned before) kept the charges of the use of this facility either completely free or very minimal for persons with disabilities. They are also obliged (under law) to make provisions of health and safety to the users (to the extent of providing medical and life guard personnel at the premises). Maintenance of course is also one of their responsibilities. But it all ends there!

Secondly and interestingly, there is also a dearth of such trained staff in a country like ours (which is the biggest contender for an entry to the Guinness Records and obviously so for all the wrong reasons like unemployment, population etc.). So even if you do find people who are willing to become carers and assistants (usually as a second choice), they will have to be trained (usually by family, friends or the person needing the assistance himself) as there is no organised pool of trained persons available.

And for both the reasons stated above, a financial mechanism only aimed at providing assistants and carers to persons with disability may not work out unless (in my opinion) an NGO or a Corporate decides to take up the issue and;

-either takes up the responsibility of training and deploying (salary) carers and assistants to be available at such facilities or

-simply adopts the swimming pool and takes care of the financial implications related to provision of carer and assistant services while another organisation trains them.

The previous case will not only create a pool of trained staff which can then seek employment at other similar areas but also help create a more sustainable system which is replicable at other inclusive facilities.

The issue of assigning separate timings however remains unless as you said, we are able to positively convince the administrators and other members of the swimming pool to understand the importance and need for inclusion.  Interestingly, when asked to comment on the separate timings at the swimming pool, one of the disabled user of the pool (who I mentioned earlier in the post) had a rather straight forward answer, and he said “well like when you visit a forest reserve, it is understood that the animals have the first right of way, and in this case with the accessible swimming pool (which is one of the very few we have in delhi), the disabled users have the first right and hence the question of separate timings does not arise”  

I guess we still have a long way to go….

_________________
Cheers !

Sachin

[Dsamant]

Hi Sachin,

I completely agree with all the points you've raised. They are very valid and really bring out the need to think deeply about it. The practical considerations and realities of applying (the mostly theoretical) ideas I had mentioned are challenging.

Your point about the lack of trained staff and professionals is very much on target. And yes training such a staff would have multiple advantages.

An NGO could potentially take up the responsibility of financing/providing the assistants. A framework can be laid out which would train the staff, then match each consumer to the most suitable assistants, and provide these assistants for help with activities of daily living even in other areas. If it works it can be replicated by others.

However funding such an operation would not be easy. It would be important to obtain enough funding in grants or gifts to provide quality training and build in commitment to their work. It should also be sufficient to cover salary expenses etc. to make sure that it is not costly or taxing for the consumer.

I don't know if the government would provide any funding or reimbursement for such services? If they do, would they then also put restrictions on what an agency can/cannot do?

Are there any means to get into public/private partnerships in this area? If this is done, it would be important to ensure that the consumer is not charged...like the example you had mentioned above about "therapeutic recreation"

I don't think I provided any answers! But at least we can brainstorm and discuss the issues involved...hopefully we can arrive at a practical solution.

Keep the thoughts flowing...

Regards
Deepti

Hi Sachin,

I completely agree with all the points you've raised. They are very valid and really bring out the need to think deeply about it. The practical considerations and realities of applying (the mostly theoretical) ideas I had mentioned are challenging.

Your point about the lack of trained staff and professionals is very much on target. And yes training such a staff would have multiple advantages.

An NGO could potentially take up the responsibility of financing/providing the assistants. A framework can be laid out which would train the staff, then match each consumer to the most suitable assistants, and provide these assistants for help with activities of daily living even in other areas. If it works it can be replicated by others.

However funding such an operation would not be easy. It would be important to obtain enough funding in grants or gifts to provide quality training and build in commitment to their work. It should also be sufficient to cover salary expenses etc. to make sure that it is not costly or taxing for the consumer.

I don't know if the government would provide any funding or reimbursement for such services? If they do, would they then also put restrictions on what an agency can/cannot do?

Are there any means to get into public/private partnerships in this area? If this is done, it would be important to ensure that the consumer is not charged...like the example you had mentioned above about "therapeutic recreation"

I don't think I provided any answers! But at least we can brainstorm and discuss the issues involved...hopefully we can arrive at a practical solution.

Keep the thoughts flowing...

Regards
Deepti

[Vic]

Hello Sachin, Neha & Deepti,

Thanks Sachin for bringing up the issue. It forces one to think what may be expected as a 'reasonable provision' by the service provider, the local authority regulating the swimming pool in this case.

Complete accessibility is only a word that we use to delude ourselves. I believe, and I am sure you will agree, that with progress on the inclusion front we are only continually redefining boundaries and there will always be people left outside the redefined parameters who will unfortunately (& very wrongly) have to be excluded until we mature in other inclusion areas outside physical access & service management policies.

The issue of carers raised by you also reminds me of a whole new dimension of problems faced by disabled people striving to live independently. Its unfortunate that no one is working in this area & disabled people who want to live independently + without family support have to do with hiring the general house help assistants & maids - having to train these people themselves, they are then struck with them for the fear that they may not find another suitable one or will have to go though the pain of having to train another new maid or assistant from scratch. Needless to say these assistants/ maids/ carers do pick up on this & start taking undue advantages of the person who employs them. Therefore, there is all the further need, as suggested by you & Deepti, to have a carer pool - or at least a system to train those interested.

In this specific case I agree with you & Deepti that, with the unlikely-hood of a pool of trained assistance being available in the immediate future,  its only fair that the pool management do what they reasonably can. I think for now, the immediate need is to work out a system where disabled & non-disabled members may be integrated simultaneously, in the same hours.

I wonder if it might be an idea to trial scheduling the 'common use hours' in such a way that the persons with behavioral problems only access outside the 'family friendly hours' (it should be easy to integrate other disabled members  in the family hours). I am not sure how practical this approach maybe as it will require a total revamp of existing operational policies - screening people, selectively matching them in mixed groups (of disabled & non-disabled), and allocating usage hours to the groups (rather than individuals). This will definitely add more workload to our already overworked babus    but I feel,  in the current scenario, this might be a better step towards inclusion by scheduling different timings for groups of mixed abilities rather than bundling all people who have disabilities in one single group and allocating them an exclusive usage timing/ schedule, as seems to be in the pipeline.

And yes, they should definitely start promoting inclusive posters etc as suggested by Deepti to make the non-disabled members gradually accustomed to the concept of inclusion.

Do you guys think this might be feasible ?

Vikas

_________________
Vikas

AccessAbility

Hello Sachin, Neha & Deepti,

Thanks Sachin for bringing up the issue. It forces one to think what may be expected as a 'reasonable provision' by the service provider, the local authority regulating the swimming pool in this case.

Complete accessibility is only a word that we use to delude ourselves. I believe, and I am sure you will agree, that with progress on the inclusion front we are only continually redefining boundaries and there will always be people left outside the redefined parameters who will unfortunately (& very wrongly) have to be excluded until we mature in other inclusion areas outside physical access & service management policies.

The issue of carers raised by you also reminds me of a whole new dimension of problems faced by disabled people striving to live independently. Its unfortunate that no one is working in this area & disabled people who want to live independently + without family support have to do with hiring the general house help assistants & maids - having to train these people themselves, they are then struck with them for the fear that they may not find another suitable one or will have to go though the pain of having to train another new maid or assistant from scratch. Needless to say these assistants/ maids/ carers do pick up on this & start taking undue advantages of the person who employs them. Therefore, there is all the further need, as suggested by you & Deepti, to have a carer pool - or at least a system to train those interested.

In this specific case I agree with you & Deepti that, with the unlikely-hood of a pool of trained assistance being available in the immediate future,  its only fair that the pool management do what they reasonably can. I think for now, the immediate need is to work out a system where disabled & non-disabled members may be integrated simultaneously, in the same hours.

I wonder if it might be an idea to trial scheduling the 'common use hours' in such a way that the persons with behavioral problems only access outside the 'family friendly hours' (it should be easy to integrate other disabled members  in the family hours). I am not sure how practical this approach maybe as it will require a total revamp of existing operational policies - screening people, selectively matching them in mixed groups (of disabled & non-disabled), and allocating usage hours to the groups (rather than individuals). This will definitely add more workload to our already overworked babus    but I feel,  in the current scenario, this might be a better step towards inclusion by scheduling different timings for groups of mixed abilities rather than bundling all people who have disabilities in one single group and allocating them an exclusive usage timing/ schedule, as seems to be in the pipeline.

And yes, they should definitely start promoting inclusive posters etc as suggested by Deepti to make the non-disabled members gradually accustomed to the concept of inclusion.

Do you guys think this might be feasible ?

Vikas

_________________
Vikas

AccessAbility